Curse

Fay Vert · Jul 15, 2011, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Rangers have great energy management, if they use ranger skills. The problem is that ranger skills are so rubbish we have to use non-ranger skills which don't benefit from our energy management.

Ranger skills were fine, but the power creep took the game away from us.

Wenspire · Jul 16, 2011, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Ranger EN management is fine with any attack skills (and stances?). Dagger, axe, sword or scythe rangers never have EN issues with a good investment in Expertise. It's when you start wanting to add enchantments and such is where there are problems.

Xiaquin · Jul 16, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Ranger EN management is fine with any attack skills (and stances?). Dagger, axe, sword or scythe rangers never have EN issues with a good investment in Expertise. It's when you start wanting to add enchantments and such is where there are problems.

The primary energy management is preventive loss. Short of burning your elite, using pet skills or a zealous mod, there are no sustainable energy returns.

Contrast to the assassin, dervish and paragon getting returns in their primary attribute (warrior focusing more on adrenaline as a resource) the ranger is somewhat disadvantaged. You have a point about secondary investment, but I'll add PvE skills to the mix.

The problem is skill types are managed, not energy itself, so Expertise does need to be looked at.

Wenspire · Jul 16, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I think the Ranger's Expertise is pretty fair compared to sin/derv/paras. Among those four classes, I think only a Derv can get EN gains off caster-type skills. I suppose if you count sins and their AP you may be able to as well, but that's burning an elite.

One additional good thing about Exp is that it reduces spirit creation costs so Rangers, in my eyes, are probably the 2nd best class to run an SoS build on.

But in regards to builds that focus on mainly attack skills, I think Rangers are fine in their EN management department.

Xenomortis · Jul 16, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I think the Ranger's Expertise is pretty fair compared to sin/derv/paras. Among those four classes, I think only a Derv can get EN gains off caster-type skills. I suppose if you count sins and their AP you may be able to as well, but that's burning an elite.

Expertise is possibly the most broken primary attribute in the game.
It's not the most powerful, but it's the most clumsy and has been problematic forever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

One additional good thing about Exp is that it reduces spirit creation costs so Rangers, in my eyes, are probably the 2nd best class to run an SoS build on.

Joint second with the Necromancer, Elementalist, Mesmer and Monk. Although I suppose the Ranger gets more armour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

But in regards to builds that focus on mainly attack skills, I think Rangers are fine in their EN management department.

They can spam 5 energy attack skills; namely Barrage.
Not exactly astounding.

Fay Vert · Jul 16, 2011, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Expertise is fine. When it affected more it was too good. The PVE skills are a problem though. Heck, even the trap doesn't get a discount!

Wenspire · Jul 17, 2011, 03:19 AM // 03:19

They can spam any 5en attack skills (melee/ranged) on any profession. I guess if people were hoping to change the ranger into a spell-casting build I can see where a problem might show up. But that's like making a spellcaster into a melee profession which isnt optimal in most instances.

Ranger's higher armor rating is extremely nice though, as you touched upon. +40AR vs elemental compared to casters is almost like running around with armor of earth on all the time.

Siver · Jul 17, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

I had an idea to make rangers viable in Hm for a while now.

To explain it simply.. all traps act like preparations..In that you can precast them(and not set them) then..

Elite Skill: Set Traps 10energy 30 cool down

Set's 1-3-5 pre-activated traps at your currant location.(All your skills are disabled for 3-6-9 seconds afterwards)

Premises is simple..trap activation is still easily to interrupt.. but the skill "set traps" is not. Also scales to expertise as not to be too over powered.
If you think about it, it would quit useful in all Speed Clear teams. Making the rangers relevant in PVE HM.
U can use any useless elite the ranger currently has and rename it. Only major issue is changing the functionality of traps not to activate when initially cast.

Maria The Princess · Jul 21, 2011, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparks Of Fire

For PvE only:

Any skill that has the words "pet" or "animal Companion" should allow you to have a pet with you....no need for Comfort Animal or any of the other limited skills that allow you to have a pet.

The logic here is if you are using these skills you obviously want to have a pet with you.

Other than that the ranger is fine in my opinion.

FOR RANGERS ONLY: In my opinion the pet should be not a skill but an item (like in many other MMOs) that would go in your equipment pack. when you capture at least 1, you get that item that lets you summon the pet outside of town (blow a whistle or a horn to call it for the RPers

). if you want to stable it go for it, and the item will then summon the newly captured (or replaced with) pet. to capture the pet obviously need charm animal but how often do you capture pets? lol

should be 5-10 seconds casting time and make it so if you summon it you cannot un-summon it and it only goes away when you're in town so people don't abuse the feature.

But i agree it is rediculous to have 2 skill slots completely "wasted" just because you have a pet, something that is a designed to be a big part of ranger.

so on a pet master bar you will have: charm animal, comfort animal, some kind of resurrection most of the time. 3 slots you cant use for upgrading your DPS, which the ranger needs badly in pve.

ANY OTHER CLASSES: should have to carry the "charm animal" skill to have the pets.

cataphract · Jul 21, 2011, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siver

I had an idea to make rangers viable in Hm for a while now.

Are you serious?

I have a gwamm ranger and haven't seen her as not being viable in HM for a second. If anything, she's proven great at dishing out damage and boosting defense of her teams with SY! up almost all the time.

<mutters to himself>
Make rangers viable in HM... FFS. Where the "report" button?

Pew · Jul 22, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Why do people seem so adamant that Rangers aren't viable? I've had no problems at all playing with my Ranger, HM or NM. Rangers aren't about big damage numbers, play something else if you want to see big numbers. (That's not to say there aren't builds that do a ton of damage, Splinter Barrage & ED builds come to mind.)

And when was the last time anyone here even used a pet in PvE? Just using Comfort Animal is a heal/res. Then you can spam a +40 Dmg +DW skill for 3 Energy every 5 seconds. I personally like using HaO, so I've got a Heal/Res/Damage buff in one skill slot. In PvP it's balanced, because you're gaining an extra party member.

Why should Rangers get an extra party member for no downside? Every similar skill needs a skill slot (Minions, spirits) in a lot of cases, multiple skill slots to be effective. None of these can be controlled in the way that pets can either. They're not meant to be something you can just throw on a build a be good. You have to spend attribute points, and actually think about it, just as with every other attribute line in the game.

And these suggestions to make Preperations instant/quick activating? 1/4 cast? Really?
They're call Preperations for a reason. You use them before an engagement; to prepare yourself. Even if you use them at the beggining of the battle, the frontline still takes ~2 seconds to reach the enemies, so you're at no disadvantage still. (When you should be, as you're not playing Ranger right.)
You should be using your position on the battlefield to your advantage, whether that be claiming higher ground to increase your range + damage, or just using the fact that you're able to stay away from the frontlines to observe what is happening, and react accordingly.

And people are calling for Preperations + Barrage at the same time as wishing that Preperations last for a certain number of arrows? Just think about that.
Sure, the timing makes less sense than a certain number of shots, but it's more practical. Use an IAS and you instantly have the preperation last half of the time. There's got to be a balance between what is more "realistic" and what is more useable.

Expertise is my favorite Primary Attribute in the game. Whereas others allow that proffession to do other proffession's jobs better than them (Energy Storage, Soul Reaping), Expertise stops other classes being able to take advantage of the Rangers skills, leaving it the only one who can make the most of them. 60% Energy cost reduction? I'll take that for sure.

Before PvE skills came about, I probably would have argued that they could do with a number of buffs, but with the advent of PvE skills, it gives them an upgrade without having to worry about balance issues. (because it's balanced if everyone can use the same OP skills, right?)

That being said, I'd like to see more synergy between ranger skills, perhaps a chain skill or two. Perhaps a conditional DW skill?
And I do agree on the (non-elite) spirit recharge reductions. Casting times make sense, as they are Rituals after all. Just make them more transportable, and therefore more viable.

Hunter's Shot: 15e, 10r.
If Hunter's Shot hits you strike for +3...13...15 damage. If this attack hits a Crippled or Bleeding foe, that foe suffers a Deep Wound for 5...16...20 seconds.

Splinter Shot: 10e, 5r.
If Splinter Shot hits, you deal +3...13...15 damage. Foes adjacent to your target begin Bleeding for 3...21...25 seconds. This arrow moves faster than normal

Focused Shot: 10e, 2s Activation, 5r.
If Focused Shot hits, you deal +5...18...25 damage and inflict a Deep Wound for 5...12...15 seconds. This action is easily interruptible.

Bear in mind I litterally just opened up the skills interface with my Ranger and chose a couple of less/hardly ever used skills and made them more usable (While trying not to just ++DOMAGES OK). These are also intended for PvE, like others have said, Rangers do not need a buff in PvP. I mean that Hunter's Shot in PvP? gg.

Personally I've enjoyed most of the updates to Rangers, the one exception being the addition of aftercast to 1s activation attack skills. Perhaps instead of an aftercast, disable skills for 1s. It stops the BA > Hunters > Savage spikes that caused the nerf, and makes Turret Rangers, well, more Turret-like.

Anyway, that's pretty much my opinion. But what I do know, is just saying that "This needs to be changed" is much less effective that actually giving examples and ideas yourself. Even if the examples aren't stellar, there's bound to be people who can improve on it.

cataphract · Jul 22, 2011, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

And when was the last time anyone here even used a pet in PvE? Just using Comfort Animal is a heal/res. Then you can spam a +40 Dmg +DW skill for 3 Energy every 5 seconds. I personally like using HaO, so I've got a Heal/Res/Damage buff in one skill slot. In PvP it's balanced, because you're gaining an extra party member.

Here's a little something I used a lot while vanquishing and doing dungeons. It's not optimal but it was great fun. Pet was dealing tons damage and I was triggering Barbs and MoP with Triple Shot while being able to provide a sometimes critical interrupt or armor boost. Had no problems whatsoever in HM. And that was way before the 7 hero update.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

She's turning six in a few days. <3

Pew · Jul 22, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Oh, maybe that was worded badly. I meant in relation to people saying that taking a pet needs multiple slots. (Charm/Comfort/Attack Skills) If they had used it recently then they'd know it's a lot better than they're making out.

I've personally used a pet for the majority of the time as a Ranger.
I usually go the R/P with HaO, although I do like the sound of "SY!" and Triple Shot, and of course the close to broken Enraged Lunge.

WhiteAsIce · Jul 23, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Expertise lost what usefulness it had left when Mysticism was changed to be a Dervish version of Expertise. Oh, but Mysticism adds armor too!

Amy Awien · Jul 23, 2011, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

... Rangers aren't about big damage numbers ...

Unfortunately PvE is about big damage numbers.

And yes, rangers can vanquish everything. With their heroes.

cataphract · Jul 23, 2011, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

Oh, maybe that was worded badly. I meant in relation to people saying that taking a pet needs multiple slots. (Charm/Comfort/Attack Skills) If they had used it recently then they'd know it's a lot better than they're making out.

It was worded okay. 'T was me that forgot to mention I agreed with you and posted that screenshot to give the nay-sayers a bit of visual aid.

pakhavit · Jul 23, 2011, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

Rangers aren't about big damage numbers, play something else if you

Splinter + 1-2-Death blossom + bal aura + mop + 33% aspd = KABOOM

Bow sucks D;

Xiaquin · Jul 23, 2011, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakhavit

Splinter + 1-2-Death blossom + bal aura + mop + 33% aspd = KABOOM

Bow sucks D;

Well, at least one of those you listed is possibly a ranger skill...

pakhavit · Jul 24, 2011, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Well, at least one of those you listed is possibly a ranger skill...

I wish I could use Critical Agility instead though.... Ranger sucks QQ

Pew · Jul 24, 2011, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakhavit

Splinter + 1-2-Death blossom + bal aura + mop + 33% aspd = KABOOM

Bow sucks D;

But you can do that exact thing, and more just by using Barrage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Unfortunately PvE is about big damage numbers.

And that's what your heroes are for.
Rangers are essentially a toolbox. They're a utility character.
Rangers can do big damage numbers, but that's not what they're best at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

Expertise lost what usefulness it had left when Mysticism was changed to be a Dervish version of Expertise. Oh, but Mysticism adds armor too!

How does a change to a different proffesions Primary Attribute, that affect different things to Expertise, and is entirely unrelated to Rangers somehow make a very strong Primary Attribute useless? That doesn't even begin to make sense.